Curse

trankle · Nov 21, 2008, 03:05 PM // 15:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

Your argument doesn't even address the point. You are more or less saying "Anet gave us certain rewards for doing the missions before the update and after the update thus it is fair". I'm saying those rewards are unfair. Get it?

I searched around a bit, and can't find the thread you posted in prior to 11/13 stating that the rewards for attaining Protector/Guardian were unfair...

I get that you don't like that to get the new rewards, you'd have to play missions you've already played.

But the fact is that you can complete a new book, and you'll get the same reward as the first-timer.

You don't have to think that the effort is worth the reward. For me, it's probably not. So I won't bother doing new books. But I don't confuse that with the reward system being unfair, just because I don't feel like the reward is worth my time.

If you to make your case to Anet, come out and put it in the right terms:

"I completed missions and got the rewards that were advertised. I now feel that those rewards aren't enough, and would like more rewards."

-------------------------------------------------------------------

As an aside, there is now a thread in Riverside regarding Anet/NCSOft's new promotion: If you buy a new campaign, you'll get a second at 50% off.

I trust that the folks lobbying in this thread for retroactive rewards will be appearing in that thread to ask for cash refunds?

Frozy · Nov 21, 2008, 03:30 PM // 15:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by trankle

I searched around a bit, and can't find the thread you posted in prior to 11/13 stating that the rewards for attaining Protector/Guardian were unfair...

I get that you don't like that to get the new rewards, you'd have to play missions you've already played.

But the fact is that you can complete a new book, and you'll get the same reward as the first-timer.

You don't have to think that the effort is worth the reward. For me, it's probably not. So I won't bother doing new books. But I don't confuse that with the reward system being unfair, just because I don't feel like the reward is worth my time.

If you to make your case to Anet, come out and put it in the right terms:

"I completed missions and got the rewards that were advertised. I now feel that those rewards aren't enough, and would like more rewards."

-------------------------------------------------------------------

As an aside, there is now a thread in Riverside regarding Anet/NCSOft's new promotion: If you buy a new campaign, you'll get a second at 50% off.

I trust that the folks lobbying in this thread for retroactive rewards will be appearing in that thread to ask for cash refunds?

1 - The point is that new players get something we don't, one of the features of the update : gaining more faction/rep points while playing normally.
If we do the missions again for the book reward, we don't "play normally", we grind, we already played those missions normally.

2 - As we already said, comparing with real life, especially with real-life economy, doesn't help your case.
Nobody gets hurt from us getting these retroactive rewards, there's no reason NOT to give them to us, it's a win-win situation, that's not the case with most real-life examples we got here.

DreamWind · Nov 21, 2008, 03:42 PM // 15:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by trankle

I searched around a bit, and can't find the thread you posted in prior to 11/13 stating that the rewards for attaining Protector/Guardian were unfair...

I never said that.

If anything I might have said titles should be removed from the game lol.

As for the rest of your post, I think Frozy explained it nicely.

trankle · Nov 21, 2008, 04:07 PM // 16:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frozy

1 - The point is that new players get something we don't, one of the features of the update : gaining more faction/rep points while playing normally.
If we do the missions again for the book reward, we don't "play normally", we grind, we already played those missions normally.

Here's where you might be a little confused. Anet is not setting out to eliminate grind. Not at all. They are adjusting the game so that there is more than one viable way to grind your way up the title.

Does it suck that they still want us to grind out a title? Yeah, I happen to think it does. Luckily, I find myself with no drive to work on that title. The update to PvE skills power scaling took care of any desire I had to grind away at faction. That was a good move on ANet's part that made the work necessary for tangible benefits minimal, while keeping the grinders set with plenty to look forward to.

This latest update was not "Ta-da! No more grind!". It was "Ta-da! You can now grind in a variety of ways!".

Don't like it? I'm with you, although I do think rewarding ungodly repetition of missions, vanquishes, etc is better than the ungodly repetition of planting flags.

So to your point...you did gain more faction while playing normally. When you logged in with your character, that was awarded retroactively. But the books were not added to reduce your grind. The books were added to give you a new way to grind.

So when you say "If we do the missions again for the book reward, we don't play normally, we grind", then all I can do is alert you to the fact that you've stumbled across the freaking obvious.

You received your retroactive benefit, and now you have the option of joining the grind. Or not.

Frozy · Nov 21, 2008, 04:51 PM // 16:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by trankle

Here's where you might be a little confused. Anet is not setting out to eliminate grind. Not at all. They are adjusting the game so that there is more than one viable way to grind your way up the title.

Does it suck that they still want us to grind out a title? Yeah, I happen to think it does. Luckily, I find myself with no drive to work on that title. The update to PvE skills power scaling took care of any desire I had to grind away at faction. That was a good move on ANet's part that made the work necessary for tangible benefits minimal, while keeping the grinders set with plenty to look forward to.

This latest update was not "Ta-da! No more grind!". It was "Ta-da! You can now grind in a variety of ways!".

Don't like it? I'm with you, although I do think rewarding ungodly repetition of missions, vanquishes, etc is better than the ungodly repetition of planting flags.

So to your point...you did gain more faction while playing normally. When you logged in with your character, that was awarded retroactively. But the books were not added to reduce your grind. The books were added to give you a new way to grind.

So when you say "If we do the missions again for the book reward, we don't play normally, we grind", then all I can do is alert you to the fact that you've stumbled across the freaking obvious.

You received your retroactive benefit, and now you have the option of joining the grind. Or not.

First of all, nobody said the update should have eliminated the grind, we all know it's purpose was to reduce it (and add new ways to grind, so it's also more fun)
Reduce =/= Eliminate

The problem is that new players got it reduced more than us.
You say we have to grind for the books, and that's where the issue is, we have to grind for what they get for playing normally.
We no longer have the option to "play normally" like them, repeating these missions falls into the grind category, Thus it should be rewarded retroactively.

You say we already got our retroactive rewards, but we only got some of them, the ones we'd get from completing specific missions for the first time, something we cannot do again... sounds familiar?
Additionally, that amount is not even close to the amount the books give.

Thus, new players get more than us, there's no good reason for that, nobody would get hurt from us getting equal benefits through retroactive rewards, and nobody managed to give a good reason for NOT giving that to us.

DreamWind · Nov 21, 2008, 05:53 PM // 17:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frozy

The problem is that new players got it reduced more than us.
You say we have to grind for the books, and that's where the issue is, we have to grind for what they get for playing normally.
We no longer have the option to "play normally" like them, repeating these missions falls into the grind category, Thus it should be rewarded retroactively.

Well put. Its amazing how many people ignore or don't get this point.

Shasgaliel · Nov 21, 2008, 05:56 PM // 17:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frozy

1 - The point is that new players get something we don't, one of the features of the update : gaining more faction/rep points while playing normally.
If we do the missions again for the book reward, we don't "play normally", we grind, we already played those missions normally.

2 - As we already said, comparing with real life, especially with real-life economy, doesn't help your case.
Nobody gets hurt from us getting these retroactive rewards, there's no reason NOT to give them to us, it's a win-win situation, that's not the case with most real-life examples we got here.

so 1. What new players? How many of them are there? You think that giving them something as an incentive is bad? See 2 below

2. I wonder why the people posting do not read the thread. No it is not fair. You want something people with maxed faction titles did not get. Making factions titles easier to get byt giving those free stuff harms those who already got them. It is not win win it is far from it. If someone has spent hours getting his both luxon/kurzick titles maxed he gets nothing with this retroactivity except his hard worked title being now given in an easy way to people who wanted to get additional benefits from their protector/guardian titles.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frozy

The problem is that new players got it reduced more than us.
You say we have to grind for the books, and that's where the issue is, we have to grind for what they get for playing normally.
We no longer have the option to "play normally" like them, repeating these missions falls into the grind category, Thus it should be rewarded retroactively.

I will repeat it again. Books removed no problem..... Anyway you want to get a grind based title kurzick/luxon with less grind just because you completed missions? Maybe people should get guardian and protector for their kurzick/luxon titles?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frozy

Thus, new players get more than us,

New players get the same rewards for completing the mission. The whole update was unfair for those who had their faction titles completed. I think to be fair the update should be reversed. Then we will be all fair and happy again.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frozy

there's no good reason for that, nobody would get hurt from us getting equal benefits through retroactive rewards,

Those who had those titles completed would. If someone decided to do missions on his 27 chars why he should get free faction while someone who spent all the time one charr grinding faction does not get anything?

I really love that argumentation: I love doing missions I did them on my X charrs but now doing it once more it will be GRIND....

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frozy

and nobody managed to give a good reason for NOT giving that to us.

That is your opinion. I have not seen any single good reason for giving it. Actually arguments get even more ridiculous. If it was up to me I would remove all those books once and for all.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

Well put. Its amazing how many people ignore or don't get this point.

It is amazing how many people had no problems doing those missions on their 73 characters and see a big problem now..... There are some who even wrote "I do missions for fun and not for rewards" and two pages later "Doing missions again is grind..." and so on. Would you treat such argument seriously then?

DreamWind · Nov 21, 2008, 06:16 PM // 18:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shasgaliel

That is your opinion. I have not seen any single good reason for giving it. Actually arguments get even more ridiculous. If it was up to me I would remove all those books once and for all.

I have seen many logical reasons for adding it. I have seen nothing legitimate for not adding it, not even from Anet (yet). Almost everybody for not adding it is saying "you are all greedy shut up and have fun stop QQing" etc. VERY few if any logical arguments for not adding it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shasgaliel

It is amazing how many people had no problems doing those missions on their 73 characters and see a big problem now..... There are some who even wrote "I do missions for fun and not for rewards" and two pages later "Doing missions again is grind..." and so on. Would you treat such argument seriously then?

Yes. If somebody did the missions on 73 characters I don't see how they can't be upset with this and would be completely feeling for them. I strongly suspect there are more people that think it is dumb than are posting here. Then there are others that say since the update as a whole is good we should leave the problems with it alone...(lol).

Quaker · Nov 21, 2008, 06:42 PM // 18:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

Yes. If somebody did the missions on 73 characters I don't see how they can't be upset with this and would be completely feeling for them. I strongly suspect there are more people that think it is dumb than are posting here. Then there are others that say since the update as a whole is good we should leave the problems with it alone...(lol).

I strongly suspect there are more people that think it's a non-issue than are posting here too. In fact, I think it's mostly the small number of whiners who are posting on here and most of the rest of the players really don't give a damn about the whole issue.

I have at least 7 characters who have done all the missions already and I couldn't care less about whether or not I now get some extra rewards for it. Then again, I like(d) playing the game, so for me, I didn't do it for the rewards, or titles - I did it for fun.

Basically you guys are whining about not getting some small amount of gold, which you could get by spending you time playing/farming instead of posting here - and/or some faction/whatever points that would only go part way toward getting some "title". If you want to max those titles, it's gonna take some amount of grind - either with the new books, or ways that you already have been - you're going to need to do more than one book anyway.

QQQ Boo-freakin'-hoo!

Rocky Raccoon · Nov 21, 2008, 06:53 PM // 18:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

Well put. Its amazing how many people ignore or don't get this point.

I don't think that it's not that people don't get the point, it's just that they don't see the entitlement that you seem to feel you deserve.

gerg-nad · Nov 21, 2008, 06:58 PM // 18:58

I generally think most of the update is alienating veterans of the game. I myself could care less for titles, but do want the points that improve skills. Titles for the little label below your name in outposts is not a benefit to me. Carrying books in an already limited space inventory is again the wrong direction. And having a lot more AI party members with Summoning Stone, is making this less of a game you play with other real players and one you might as well be playing a single player game.

Unfortunately many veteran players have already moved on and those that are left are not looking to redo whole campaigns with limited value. Redoing elite areas that have some good rewards at the end is what many experience players are looking for. Doing these effectively and effeciently is what most veterance want. Areas of the game that you can quickly join a group and get into playing right away and not take hours to form and complete. These opportunites are becoming few and far between with each nerf and update. In most cases Anet goes out of its way to break these opportunites up.

DreamWind · Nov 21, 2008, 09:07 PM // 21:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quaker

I strongly suspect there are more people that think it's a non-issue than are posting here too. In fact, I think it's mostly the small number of whiners who are posting on here and most of the rest of the players really don't give a damn about the whole issue.

Again...even IF the majority of the people don't care (which we can't confirm), we can also say the majority doesn't care about a lot of things. Does that mean Anet shouldn't fix it?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quaker

QQQ Boo-freakin'-hoo!

Yep, the typical argument against adding it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Risky Ranger

I don't think that it's not that people don't get the point, it's just that they don't see the entitlement that you seem to feel you deserve.

Its not entitlement. Its fairness, not caring as much about players who have already done them, Anet giving us contradicting quesitonable statements, and the update not completely doing what it was meant to do.

Rocky Raccoon · Nov 21, 2008, 09:26 PM // 21:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

Its not entitlement. Its fairness, not caring as much about players who have already done them, Anet giving us contradicting quesitonable statements, and the update not completely doing what it was meant to do.

Not all in life is fair all the time and not all things always work out as intended. You have to learn to accept that not all things are going to be to your liking and short of working for ANET are out of your control. The is an old saying that says:

“God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference.”

DreamWind · Nov 21, 2008, 09:55 PM // 21:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Risky Ranger

Not all in life is fair all the time and not all things always work out as intended. You have to learn to accept that not all things are going to be to your liking and short of working for ANET are out of your control. The is an old saying that says:

“God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference.”

This is a forum. If you aren't here to discuss the game and talk about changes made to it then why are you here?

trankle · Nov 21, 2008, 10:23 PM // 22:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frozy

The problem is that new players got it reduced more than us.
You say we have to grind for the books, and that's where the issue is, we have to grind for what they get for playing normally.
We no longer have the option to "play normally" like them, repeating these missions falls into the grind category, Thus it should be rewarded retroactively.

I feel like I just went through this. You are treating "grind" like some kind of magic bullet to win the argument. "If I can prove that I have to grind, then I've won!" Read below:

Quote:

Originally Posted by trankle

But the books were not added to reduce your grind. The books were added to give you a new way to grind.

So when you say "If we do the missions again for the book reward, we don't play normally, we grind", then all I can do is alert you to the fact that you've stumbled across the freaking obvious.

The. Books. Are. Instruments. Of. Grind.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frozy

Thus, new players get more than us, there's no good reason for that, nobody would get hurt from us getting equal benefits through retroactive rewards, and nobody managed to give a good reason for NOT giving that to us.

The answer was given right here:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dev Update

We monitor the economy closely and found a significant fluctuation in how much gold players had on average after the addition of the M.O.X. quests (which give a 10 platinum reward). If we allowed players to purchase those pages, any character that had completed all three campaigns in Normal Mode would be receiving 18 platinum and 42,750 gold for Hard Mode completion for a grand total of 60,750 gold. In light of how much the economy was affected by just 10 platinum, the inflation caused by giving out 60 platinum per character was too significant for us to allow.

"Ah", you* say, "the money thing. But we already came with a solution for that...make the retroactive books cost the same as the cash reward!"

That would work in a way...but it would not be fair. As was explained earlier, some players may be happy with just getting the faction and XP, but that does not mean every player would. There are players out there who don't care about allegiance title tracks, have already maxed them, or would just rather have some gold. The 'no gold' proposal is not fair to these players.

Think of it this way. What if Anet decided to make the books retroactive, but you bought pages with faction, leaving the reward as only gold and XP. Would that seem fair to you? If not, then the 'no gold' proposal should seem just as unfair.

If fairness is paramount here, and books get made retroactive, then the only fair solution is to offer the full reward, which is the exact reward that those 'new players' get for 'playing normally'.

And, whether you agree with it or not, Anet has given the reason why they are not going to do this.

That's really all there is to it. Feel free to disagree as to whether the money influx would hurt the economy, but stop saying nobody's given a good reason. And if you still maintain a position of compromise through eliminating the gold reward, then please be honest about the fact that you are willing to give away other players' rewards to attain the rewards that would most benefit you. And in doing so, forfeit your right to use the word "fairness" in further arguments.

*not you, necessarily, but the general group of folks displeased with the update

DreamWind · Nov 21, 2008, 11:15 PM // 23:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by trankle

The. Books. Are. Instruments. Of. Grind.

The problem is only non-retroactive books in this case are instruments of grind. Perhaps they never should have been added in the first place? The point of the update was to reduce grind, yet this was completely counterproductive.

Quote:

Originally Posted by trankle

That's really all there is to it. Feel free to disagree as to whether the money influx would hurt the economy, but stop saying nobody's given a good reason. And if you still maintain a position of compromise through eliminating the gold reward, then please be honest about the fact that you are willing to give away other players' rewards to attain the rewards that would most benefit you. And in doing so, forfeit your right to use the word "fairness" in further arguments.

Nobody DID give a good reason. The economy thing only came to light when Anet came out with numbers, but even those are controversial.

trankle · Nov 21, 2008, 11:46 PM // 23:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

The problem is only non-retroactive books in this case are instruments of grind. Perhaps they never should have been added in the first place? The point of the update was to reduce grind, yet this was completely counterproductive.

Nope.

Read the update notes from the 13th.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Update Notes

Our goal for this month's content update is to broaden the ways to achieve many PvE-based titles and give many other viable options for progressing in these titles, reducing the need to grind at a single task. We accomplish this in two major ways: one, significantly adjusting the numbers of existing ways to progress titles; and two, adding faction or title point rewards to places that were previously lacking them.

The purpose of the update was not to reduce grind. It was to increase the number of viable ways to grind. Read it as many times as you need to. They upped rewards for vanquishing, making that a viable way to grind, they adjusted FA/JQ/etc, to make those viable ways to grind, and they added storybooks, to make playing missions a viable way to grind.

The goal of the update was not to reduce grind, but to stop players from seeing HFFF as the only viable way to grind.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Update Notes

Between these new faction bonuses and the rewards for completing books, missions should now be a viable way to play while progressing towards the Luxon and Kurzick title tracks.

See?

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

Nobody DID give a good reason. The economy thing only came to light when Anet came out with numbers, but even those are controversial.

The economy came to light 30 minutes after the update thread hit this forum. Regina posted about it. It was elaborated more recently, but the reason was given shortly after the update.

And controversy's not too hard to create.

Fril Estelin · Nov 21, 2008, 11:47 PM // 23:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by trankle

That would work in a way...but it would not be fair. As was explained earlier, some players may be happy with just getting the faction and XP, but that does not mean every player would. There are players out there who don't care about allegiance title tracks, have already maxed them, or would just rather have some gold. The 'no gold' proposal is not fair to these players.

Think of it this way. What if Anet decided to make the books retroactive, but you bought pages with faction, leaving the reward as only gold and XP. Would that seem fair to you? If not, then the 'no gold' proposal should seem just as unfair.

If fairness is paramount here, and books get made retroactive, then the only fair solution is to offer the full reward, which is the exact reward that those 'new players' get for 'playing normally'.

Your message made me realise how much short-sighted we can be, including me. I thought that because Guru-ers displeased with the update were mainly asking about XP and factions, with only very few voices asking for the money, then it'd be fair, in particular with regards the effective reduction of grind through retroactively putting the time spent playing the game into the titles, which are mainly about time spent. But you're probably right, Guru may be a misrepresentation of the actual situation. And if I were in Anet shoes, I'd probably think the same way, there's no way it can be "fair" without the money.

And since money reward seems to not be an option, it's only fair not to do it.

GG trankle, I was wrong. Time to disappear in a puff of smoke...

Frozy · Nov 22, 2008, 12:22 AM // 00:22

Getting the faction over gold is what we believe most people would prefer, but one thing is for certain : everyone would prefer that over what we have now (nothing), so why keep it at nothing?

Also, another possible, interesting solution has been brought up in the dev update thread : Give Zaishen Keys instead of the Gold.
The Zaishen Keys don't flood the economy with new gold (at least not nearly as much), but they're worth gold, which you can easily get by selling them to other players.
So let's say the book reward is 60k, and one key is worth 5k, how about giving 12 keys?

After all, they give lots of free keys every month via the Xunlai House...

Rocky Raccoon · Nov 22, 2008, 12:40 AM // 00:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

This is a forum. If you aren't here to discuss the game and talk about changes made to it then why are you here?

For your information this game is a part of my life that I enjoy greatly. your derogatory remarks do little for my opinion of you. I have played this game for over 3 years, that makes me a so called "veteran" whom some people feel gives them some special place in the game. I am here to counteract the "I want all and I want it now" babies who have been spoon fed all there lives and play a little fun game and still want it all. Some people on this forum have a lot of growing up to do. I could cry and say oh ANET has screwed me because I didn't get this and that, but why when I have more than gotten my moneys worth. Just the friends alone I have met in game are worth all I paid. Excuse me for not agreeing with you like you think I should.